ALT.COM Interview with Cléo Dubois
Kiss of Leather, Tongues of Fire

Ms. Cleo Dubois is well known in the national leather community for her very intense workshops -- workshops on playing rough, on embracing the dark side, on erotic bondage, and on many advanced kinky skills from flogging to piercing. She counsels couples in her well-equipped private dungeon. She has produced two powerful videos designed to help people of all levels safely explore the wide world of erotic pain and power exchange. And most recently she has begun team-teaching 4-day intensive workshops for women with her long-time friend in kink Sybil Holiday. (You can find out more about Ms. Dubois www.sm-arts.com.)

In a recent interview, Ms. Dubois took time to explore some of the rich, dark, lesser-known territories of BDSM with ALT.com.

Part 1

AFF: Each individual has his or her own reasons for going to BDSM. But people just beginning their explorations may not be aware of the many flavors it can have -- for example, erotic BDSM, spiritual BDSM, BDSM for personal growth, BDSM as art, and so forth. How do all these aspects of BDSM fit in with your own approach to BDSM play?

DUBOIS: For me, BDSM is about hot erotic explorations, personal growth, healing, connecting with others and spirituality. We need big pleasure that connects us to ourselves and to the Divine. That pleasure (or should I call it pain/pleasure/surrender) I have found in the erotic rituals we call S/M. Doing a scene with trust and mutual respect, can not only increase intimacy with our partner(s), but also open the door to our inner spaces and allow our spirits to soar.

AFF: Say someone's trying something for the first time --whipping, bondage, whatever -- and they don't have the benefit of a mentor, how can they approach it safely or how can a person know their boundaries before trying something?

DUBOIS: First look into your fantasies, and follow your intuition. Decide what you are willing to actualize. So, you want to be a little brat and be spanked by "Daddy," or you, Mr. Businessman, want to be a lipstick lesbian for the evening tied up and teased by your girlfriend? If you think that the time is right bring it up in loving conversation with your partner and listen their response. If someone paints a picture and you don’t feel you fit it, say so. The only one who can tell if the idea of doing something kinky turns you on or turns you off is you. Listen to yourself. Start slow whether you are the top or the bottom. It is a real good idea to leave your partner wanting just a little more, but it can be devastating for both to hurt him/her by pushing yourself or them, whether you are the bottom wanting more or the top wanting more.

In this day of the Internet it is certainly much easier than it was before Leather folks started coming out en masse to get informed. Today you can just put BDSM into your search engine and find an enormous amount of material from sound advice to the wrong advice. It can be truly overwhelming. Another alternative is to join your local community. Most metropolitan areas have educational/social leather groups as well as munches where kinky folks can meet around a meal in a public restaurant. It is a good idea to email the group leader/organizer first and ask some questions to get a comfort level about what to expect, who attends etc. Many non-fiction BDSM books are available from a number of sources. San Francisco Greenery Press specializes in books for the sexually adventurous (http://www.greenerypress.com).

AFF: What are some things that people may not be aware of when it comes to learning one's own or a partner's boundaries?

DUBOIS: People are not aware that boundaries can come up very unexpectedly and be triggered by multiple missteps: the wrong tone of voice, wrapping the whip and not being aware of it, bad timing on the part of the Dominant, fear of hurting your partner, fear of not pleasing your partner and many more. It is always important to keep in mind that it is the submissive who enables the power exchange. A satisfying, sexy balance needs to be found to make it work for both partners. A good thing to keep in mind is to go slowly.

AFF: Is it possible that a sub goes along with something, not really aware of their personal boundaries, only to have after-shocks or repercussions?

DUBOIS: Of course it's possible. Any scene could go wrong or need to be cut short. We are playing with sex and power. Even a Top can hit one of His/Her limits and push themselves beyond it, only to regret it later. Play involving embarrassment and slapping, for instance, can bring up bad memories and by surprise, take the players out of the erotic realm. With open and honest communication, people can face difficult repercussions with a loving and caring attitude. Guilt and resentment, that's what gets in the way of healing, and keeps us from being as adventurous as we might otherwise want to be.

Leave your partner wanting more rather than taking them to an edge too fast. Again go slowly.

AFF: Can you keep your play purely recreational so that issues like these do not come up?

DUBOIS: If by "purely recreational" you mean only light and fun play, then you must try to negotiate only light and fun things to do and keep your play to only those activities. A couple of examples are a simple role reversal scene where the woman is the leader in sex play and says, "Do this; now, do that," and the man asks, "Please tie me up, Honey and do sexy things to me." These "purely recreational" scenes can awaken deeper desires in both participants. And then you cross over into the world of ritual intensity and real power exchange where buttons can easily get pushed. This is not "kindergarten" sex. This is sophisticated sex/power play.

The secret of successful kinky play is open and honest communication. It is difficult for many of us to communicate our erotic needs. If issues should arise between two consenting partners, do not blame the other for the scene not working. Stop and take a break. It is extremely important to just listen to each other rather than pointing the finger for either pushing too hard, being insensitive, not reading your body language right, not playing the game right, etc. After all, we're not mind readers. Taking risks is part of play.

AFF: You are attracted to ritual elements of BDSM going back to your trips to Malaysia for the Thaipussan Festival where you studied tribal rituals first hand. You have tribal tattoos and in your videos, you create elaborate ritualistic piercings. For you, what are the important connections between BDSM and ritual or what does ritual do to improve your understanding of BDSM?

DUBOIS: Ram Das said, "There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but once you reach the top, the view is the same." Shamanic body ritual practices borrowed from Hindu culture, such as the Thaipussam or the Native American Sun Dance, are ancient and sacred rites.

I too find that by challenging my body to embrace intense input I reach a place of stillness where I am bigger than my everyday reality. In such rituals I am both the Top and the bottom, pushing myself to feel more until I surrender under the guidance of archetypal spirits. In a way, it is very similar to SM Play. In fact, I often consider the reality of the Dungeon experience sacred space. I have now identified as a ritualist for many years. In that space burdens of my busy mind stop and I experience a feeling of oneness with life.

It is an honor to mentor others on their journeys. Just a few weeks ago, my partner, Fakir [www.bodyplay.com] and I participated in Leather Pride where we presented a Piercing Workshop and a Spirit + Flesh Ritual [see the bodyplay.com web site for more on this ritual]. It was connecting, empowering, and so sexy as the group came together in a dance that resonated with huge erotic energy. Just beautiful!

AFF: You often speak about the intense energy that a long scene or a ritual might stir up. What is your role with respect to these energies?

DUBOIS: When I am in charge of a scene, the power exchange makes me feel powerful. I stay in control and hold the space. I sometimes find myself stepping out of my ego and tuning into archetypal energies. Let me give you one example. In my first video, "The Pain Game" the connection between Creed (my beautiful masochist) and me allowed both of us to fly in shamanic S/M play. When I pulled the feathered zipper off her back, big energy was running through me. I felt the destructive energy, which is also loving. I felt very empowered as the sadist, very blessed by her gift, and not afraid to show her my vulnerability while still being totally in charge. As the Sadist, I am Kali's servant. And when I am in sync with someone I am whipping, caning, or piercing, I often feel a shift of energy. The room becomes electric. I let my intuition guide me to provide the biggest possible experience for my bottom. Of course, I pay attention to my bottom's body language. That's the way the energy works. We both go on the journey.

AFF: I believe you've mentioned that women exploring dominance often tend to be hesitant about seizing their power. (For example, in one of your demonstrations you worked with a woman who was timid with the whip). What advice or coaching might help someone get over this?

DUBOIS: I encourage folks to breathe, breathe, breathe and practice on an inanimate target, say a couch for a few minutes. Flogging is a dance and the whip’s a mere extension of our energy. When I guide a couple I encourage both partners to be fully present and to let go of their fear of not doing it just right. I am there as their safety net. It's a liberating, exhilarating experience once they get into the groove.

Since negotiation is so important, I listen a lot. Even those who are able to word their fantasies clearly come with concerns, fears and expectations. I work on guiding their play towards a hot and often quite sexy, connected time for both.

AFF: In addition to your intensive workshops for dominant women, you also teach many shorter workshops on a wide variety of BDSM topics. You mention that you often have people write their secret fantasies down and pass them in anonymously. So what fantasies turn up?

Part 2: Kiss of Leather

DUBOIS: It was at a Learning Annex afternoon seminar called, "Overcoming Sexual Shyness: Taking Charge," that I asked people to write down on a piece of paper either a fantasy they had or a secret they have never told their partner. I was amazed that there was nothing really different from what SM people play with. The fantasies ranged from Queen for a Day to gang bang fantasy, from being "used" for the pleasure of their lovers to complete sensory deprivation. After all, we all live in the same society and share common archetypes and taboos.

AFF: In terms of trying to instruct someone to bring about his/her fantasies what are some of the more challenging issues you've faced?

DUBOIS: The real challenge is for people to have the courage to come out to their partners about their secrets and see if they can share their explorations mutually. An SM Scene isn't something ready-made that you then act out together. Being clear and brave about what you want and what you are willing to do with those you are willing to do it with is the next step. Remember, you have the right to fantasize about whatever you want, fantasy alone never hurt anyone. There are risks, though, like the possibility that your partner will reject you or be horrified and that does hurt. Or that you might have a hard time dealing with what you did and feel shame. We all want to be good enough, don?t we? Just as we seek balance between Top and bottom so we get the most out of our play, so there are emotional highs and lows. You face these issues the way you do other matters in your life, with positive interpersonal communication?and perhaps a longer than usual good hug.

AFF: What do you feel are your strongest skills -- both psychological and technical -- in BDSM play?

DUBOIS: Being really present when I play and my ability to ground and flow with the scene. It?s being able to see the forest AND the trees, if you get my meaning. Paying attention to every detail, how my partner is breathing, their body language, my turn on, their turn on, my emotion, their emotions, subtle shifts of energy in the room, knowing when to push a boundary or not, knowing my own boundaries, those are my strongest skills. As for play techniques, I?ve had many years to refine them! And I am still learning.

AFF: What elements of play or types of play do you find most enjoyable?

DUBOIS: Oh there are so many... After a workshop in Los Angeles I was shown around their play space and they had a "classroom." As soon as I saw the big black board , the little school desks, and the rulers, I instantly became La Maitresse d?Ecole. The lesson was rather twisted, of course! Through the years I have surprised myself. Being of a curious nature, I didn?t turn down any fantasy I considered safe until I had at least tried it once. Say, cross-dressing, I had no understanding of it until I met a marvelous "slut/masochist" cross dresser, and playing with him/her was just a blast!

On the private side of my life, I tend to act like a know-it-all brat in my bottoming mode. However, lately I have discovered the exquisite pleasure of surrendering if the chemistry is right between me and a very special partner AND we trust each other. What I always find enjoyable is the palpable energy exchange, be it sweet or fiery. Since I?m mainly a caring sadistic control Top, the games I most enjoy involve SM, verbal interaction and bondage dynamics.

AFF: When handling a flogger, what are some key things to remember?

DUBOIS: A flogger is a very special toy, it must fit your hand and the handle should be the right thickness for you. Shorter whips are easier to handle for most people. It is a good idea to have a soft flogger for the warm up and a heavier one to continue. A good technique is to stand straight and remember to b.r.e.a.t.h.e and pay attention to where the ends of the tails connect to the submissive?s skin. The flogger is the extension of your own energy sent to your partner. There are different strokes to learn, and being aware of the rhythm is also a good thing. Giving the bottom enough time to process the input is also very important. A new player might ask the bottom where they are at on a scale of 0 to 10 with 10 being too much/red/safeword and one to three being a definite encouragement to use more force.

AFF: Aesthetics aside, what are some of the practical things to shoot for in order to have good bondage play?

DUBOIS: Know what the bondage is for: symbolic, sensual, inescapable, predicaments? Rope is a very variable toy: it can be sexy and it can be dangerous. Both Midori and Jay Wiseman have books out detailing the various knots and safety considerations available at Greenery Press. Of course, check out "Tie Me Up!" too [Cleo's bondage video]. I tend to use short ropes and very simple quick release knots and cinches.

For many who love to be tied up, bondage is liberating. It's all about letting go. "When the ropes on my body tighten, the bonds inside loosen," as my friend Kaye Buckley said. Knowing that you are taken care of, and the illusion of having NO CHOICE is a big turn on for a lot of people and allow them to accept more pleasure or pain. "I want to be spread eagle and used for your pleasure" (whose pleasure really?) is in the top 5 of the all time fantasy list of men and women. So you want to provide bondage that is comfortable enough for the body, yet tight enough to be an enclosure. Do not leave your tied up partner alone and most especially if he/she is gagged.

AFF: In your second video "Tie Me Up!" you dominate a dominant guy who, it was obvious, didn't feel completely at ease with the situation, but he had volunteer for the experience to sort of stretch himself or his limits. What are the benefit, challenges, risks of stretching boundaries in this way, and how do you proceed towards or beyond the boundary?

DUBOIS: The intent of "Tie Me Up!" is to shed some light on the why and how of bondage play. It is more an entry level video designed to demonstrate techniques that couples are often asking me to teach them. The heat of the scenes is also very palpable in the video. I am also proud of the message it contains, because a man who identifies as a Master does bottom to me. He states that he, too, needs to be taken down sometimes. I could not agree more. It can make you a better Top as well.

Brushing up against a boundary and expanding someone's limits is often positive. While we play safely, we don't play it safe. There's a big difference here. We're trying to raise that awesome erotic energy and to do that you have to stretch and be willing to go further. Make sure you connect with your partner as you are expanding their limits a little; look in their eyes and encourage them to let go and surrender for you. Of course trust is a big part of it!

AFF: If a couple wants to try this sort of switching or "stretching" what preparations do you recommend? What are some of the things that can come up?

DUBOIS: First talk about your fantasies and negotiate the scene. How will it start? Where will it take place? Will there be role play? Is it a prelude to sex or not? How do both partners see their fantasies unfolding? Then, set up a special time for your scene and give yourselves plenty of time. As the Dominant, you are responsible for designating a play space and instructing your partner on what to wear and how to present himself (herself) to you. Have your ?toys? ready, too. Discover erotic uses for everyday household items. Do not forget to use your hands, and especially your voice. Unplug the phone and set the scene with some low lighting, maybe even some candles, and some sensuous or evocative music. Using breathing techniques to keep centered increases awareness of being in our bodies and makes it easier to project our power outward. Take a comfortable seat, take a few deep breaths and begin. Humor is okay too and perhaps dirty talk. Some people can use this opportunity to talk in ways or say things that may not have felt comfortable with during vanilla sex ... for example, "you are such a little slut aren't you," or "my, you look pretty. Are you trying to look prettier than me?" The word "cocksucker" always seems to be a big turn on word. After all, it?s about having a good time, that?s why we call it play. At the same time, I strongly believe in the magic of SM and intimacy games. When the scene is over, remember to talk about what happened, your thoughts and your feelings. Cuddle and caress each other and share the aftercare you each need.

AFF: When couples are first experimenting with BDSM what's the best way for them to keep play in the playroom?

DUBOIS: In ritual terminology, you set up your sacred space and when your ritual (or play) is over, you open the space up again and resume your everyday lives. And no, it's not quite that simple in reality. Let's face it, we're all human beings with lots of emotions and ideas and concerns?Many of us are afraid we're not thin enough, rich enough, smart enough, good looking enough, so it is more than important to make and keep those boundaries we have been talking about. We also can't be so hard on each other that we can't admit something was done inadvertently and get over it. If it helps, light a candle when the scene starts and when it's over, including the aftercare of hugging and connecting again, blow it out.


AFF: If a loving couple want to help each other work through deep seated issues, how do you suggest they embark on this type of exploration, especially if it's a radical departure from comfort zones?

DUBOIS: I would recommend that they seek out a good kink aware therapist. While BDSM may be therapeutic to some, it is NOT therapy. People should never wield a whip in anger and people should take their deep-seated issues to a professional for help. Here is a list of kink aware professionals in the USA: http://www.bannon.com/kap.

I would recommend that they seek out a good kink aware therapist. While BDSM may be therapeutic to some, it is NOT therapy. People should never wield a whip in anger and people should take their deep-seated issues to a professional for help. Here is a list of kink aware professionals in the USA: http://www.bannon.com/kap.


AFF: You say that one rewarding part of your work is when you lead couples in guided play sessions. What are the situations of couples who might come to you for this assistance and what objectives do you go for when working with couples?

Part 3: Kiss of Fire

DUBOIS: By the time people seek my help they have usually found common ground and I do help them by asking them to email me separately about their wishes, their previous experience if any, interests fears and hard limits. When they arrive we sit in my office and fine tune the negotiation. I then take the Dominant Partner to help Her/Him familiarize themselves with the space and the toys He/She might want to use... Once the scene starts, I hold the space for them and focus not only on technique but making sure that it's a good experience for all. We look for parity, making sure that everyone's needs and desires are met at least some of the time. Of course, for the safety of the bottom, the use of yellow and red safewords are to be honored in my dungeon…Remember, too, that safe words are not reserved for bottoms. A Top’s boundary might be pushed. Perhaps the submissive wants more pain/intensity than the top is willing to offer or be humiliated in way the other partner is not ok with.

AFF: What other issues have come up in your mentoring work with couples? What do you find rewarding about that work?

DUBOIS: Sometimes there are differences in the types of play each partner will agree to. Even though SM people are not usually swingers, but players, they can seek out, with the consent of their partners, other part-time play-partners outside the relationship with whom they can play different games. In most cases, once we have started to really explore our erotic BDSM desires, it really is often not viable just to keep our activities to one partner. That can be a complex issue for couples. Fortunately, Dossie Easton and Catherine Lizst have written "The Ethical Slut" a great book dealing with jealousy, fear and honest non-monogamous play (http://www.greenerypress.com).

AFF: What issues are you personally exploring these days in your BDSM work?

DUBOIS: My main focus these days is on energy and learning more about how we can use our erotic energies to connect with the big love we all seek from the universe. It's opened my heart to see the spirits of so many people all over the country soar at the Spirit + Flesh Rituals, and the magic of that dynamic among each class of women who attend The Erotic Dominance Intensives. I am also valuing more and more my long term committed relationship and my very close friends with whom I play on both sides of the whip.

AFF: With your twenty-plus years of experience, and your years of instructional work, are there still things that your workshop attendees can surprise you with?

DUBOIS: Each teaching experience is also a learning experience and there are always surprises. Usually they are amusing or exciting, sometimes, though, they are not. Although all the resources you can read and all the educators giving classes out there say the same thing, sometimes people forget to tell you that they have some kind of medical problem: knees, shoulders, necks. You’d be surprised how not finding those things out beforehand can wreck havoc on a scene. Personally I am always a little surprised to find that people imagine me to be very serious when, in fact, I love humor and spontaneity.

One person who can always surprise me is Sybil. You would think that after all this time of knowing each other, there wasn’t any way we could surprise each other. Then at the last Player’s Intensive, I was in the middle of a talk about different type of fetishes and mentioned that I don’t go for age play. In about two quick sentences, my long time friend had me talking like a 7 year old and we were in the middle of a scene. She really caught me off guard and yet it was perfect for the class to see just how quickly you can reach for a boundary and push.

AFF : You've just announced that you're going to be giving a men's intensive workshop the end of February, which is a departure for you, and already many men have expressed an interest. Why do you think the time is right for teaching a male intensive and how might you approach or shape the men's workshop differently from the woman's?

DUBOIS: Sybil and I feel that we have run The Erotic Dominance Intensives for Women long enough now to be able to offer the same level of intensity, guidance, and insight to men we have been providing for women. After many years of working with couples in the privacy of my dungeon, many of them Dominant Men with their female submissives, I know that there are Dominant Men who would like the insights that Women who Top and Women who switch can offer.

I also asked many women bottoms what they wish their Tops would be more aware of. And that made me think of the idea behind "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy." If straight men are willing to take advice from five queer men, then kinky Dominant men might be ready to receive and experience insights from Dominant Women and Women who switch.

Every Top I know shares one thing: the desire to put it all together: look good, feel confident, connect with their submissives and share that sizzling hot energy in scene, complete with the kind of honest afte-care that leaves no ill side effects.

That's what Sybil and I have shared with women who attend The Erotic Dominance Intensive and now we invite men to do the same [the week-end of February 19-20 2005]. I am really thrilled at the level of response I already received by my announcing it to my local community.

AFF: A lot of our members live far away from a thriving BDSM scene. If someone is BDSM-curious but has no access to a "scene" and their only exposure to it is Hollywood images, what are some of the ways the "Hollywood" or popular conception of BDSM is different from the scene as you know it?

DUBOIS: As far as Hollywood is concerned, I was surprised at how good and sexy the film, "Secretary," is. The film does an excellent job at showing D/s dynamics with each partner getting what they want.

Another thing about movies, especially kinky porn: So many online folks are influenced by unrealistic scenes or discussions they see online and people who say they have done things real time, but actually have only done them in their own minds. Some newcomers to the Scene think that what they see in BDSM porn is not dangerous and is easy to do because they see the images over and over again. Even in the most consensual bondage video the viewer is not aware that as soon as the image was captured on film, the bottom was released very quickly, The Tops have lots of experience with the ropes, and the professional bondage models are very slender and supple. Most folks out there could not enjoy these positions or suspensions.

AFF: What would you say to help inexperienced members make BDSM more real in their lives, both in terms of what steps they could take and in terms of how to assess what they're looking for?

DUBOIS: What a nice lead in to telling you about my videos to be released in DVD in the future! In both my videos, “The Pain Game” and “Tie Me Up,” I have succeeded in presenting scenes that are real, between real players, doing things we really do when we engage in BDSM play. Both "The Pain Game" and "Tie Me Up" were filmed in the privacy of my personal dungeon where I offer training and coaching in a safe and sane environment. You can order online, safely (http://cleodubois.com/videos.htm) and it will be mailed to you discreetly.

[On the other hand], all porn is made for the viewer. Think of your own real time taste in sexual activity. Do you do these contorted sex positions in your own bedroom?

AFF: You used to be a professional dominatrix and now you are primarily an educator. Could you talk a little about the two different types of work, pro-Domme versus educator? How has the career shift enriched (or not) your personal BDSM?

DUBOIS: When I first discovered my sadistic Dominant side, I was very raw. My enthusiasm probably scared a number of mainly male submissives. In fact, many years later when I got on the Internet, several of these old clients wrote me that they never forgot me and told me just that. "You scared me but now I am ready for your intensity." While I am still an intense player, I have also become more nurturing, more intuitive and more understanding of people's needs. Since I began this journey, I feel I have grown and embraced all the various facets of who I am. Of course, I still value my private bottoming experiences, as they allow me to balance my erotic energies and remember how sacred the gift of surrender is. As the Top in Scene, I am the anchor. I keep things from getting out of control and dangerous, physically or psychologically.

Perhaps my most important on-going lesson is to come from a place of integrity and compassion, regardless of whether I'm the Domina with a long term client or once in awhile with someone new, a Private Coach with couples or the Kink Educator at a Leather Conference. After all, when the energy flows, it is hot!

   submitted on 8/6/2004